Has there ever been a time when she seemed to indicate through her actions after putting down the magazine (srry for the split infinitive here), that she actually comprehended any part, or seemed to be influenced through any part of what she was seeing?
I know we have limited ways of knowing just what goes through their minds at any given time with language and other published cognitive data studies papers, but I wonder if any study has proven to show that, for instance, chimps like Jamie that might leaf through fashion magazines can comprehend enough of what they’re seeing, and possess enough critical thinking skills that would enable them to process the data being input, then allow it to output in the form of mimicry by copying an outfit (or piece of one) that she saw as a result?
I am writing another post in another window in reply to one of Diana’s earliear postings about Negra, in which I announce to you all that I’m in the process of trying to rearrange my coursework (and possibly schools, if needed) so I can complete a minor in primatology. This is something I’ve wanted to do for most of my life, so it’s due in large part to CSNW, this blog, and the openness of the staff; how you are more than willing to answer our questions because you truly care that we learn, because as I so, too, believe, education is power.
So besides both doctorates, I’ve now been studying every primate husbandry manual I can get my hands on, to, for the moment, supplement the animal behaviour, animal health science, and anthropology classes I’m squeezing into my schedule.
All that to say, I have a theory. It’s one that currently goes against the bulk of the primate information that came out of the studies from the Leaky camps in the ’60s with Biruté on both the Sumatran and Bornean orangutans, and it is this. After watching hundreds of hours of video, reading thousands of pages of published studies on behaviour and the neuroscience of their brain, I just do not believe that orangutans are either intelligent, or possess the ability to BE as intelligent as their rabid fans and followers would want us to believe. An orangutan’s “intelligence” comes by way of mimicry. Every single piece of information an infant orang takes in from birth is by sole way of its mum. She shows it every single piece of information it will ever need to survive for the bulk of its life. I’ll shorten this (I know others like Francoise are pursuing primatology degrees so am hoping they jump in and we can have an interesting discussion on these implications) and state that yes, it’s true humans and other classes of breathing being also learns through mimicry, but the wheat and chaff begin their separation at the issue of logic, and their critical thinking skills.
Humans home and hone that skill through the study of mathematics (among others), because the underlying culture of mathematics is logic. It’s why mathematicians enter law school in droves each year. We’re given an argument, (X), and then shown an infinite supply of tools to prove X, or what’s in the parentheses (argument).
4(x) = 8; what is x?
4x = 8
— —
4 4
? x = 2
What also seems to back up my supposition is that orangutans contain only 96.4% of human DNA.
While Bonobos contain 98.01%, and the Common Chimpanzee has 98%. I know these numbers vary depending on which genome study you read, but one of the latest I read said the Pygmy had a small, nearly undetectable strand more in common with humans than the Common.
Now, I’m just a lowly Astrophysicist/mathematician, posting to a forum run by real, practicing primatologists, so I am under no illusion that I have any smarts or that I’m even close to being right on any ideas I’ve posited so far. So I mean absolutely no affrontery or offense with my ideas, so please, no one think I’m in the process of trying to make anyone uncomfortable with this subject.
They’re just definitely ideas found interesting *to me*, and when I saw Jamie with the magazine, all these other tangential ideas began to flow, along with their resultant questions.
I watch the interaction and numbers with each type of post y’all make, and these get low interactive *scores* for some reason. I would think others, like myself, would find them highly fascinating due to the implications right here, where chimpanzee behaviour has actually been seen to change as a direct result of coming in contact with a human primate cultural practice or other iconic elements.
I dunno. I’m a proud nerd–maybe others have neither the desire or interest to completely overthink and consequentially beat every dead horse they see. ????????????
Anyway, please accept my apologies for the length of this, but if you’ve read this far, you should be commended, and I thank all sanctuary staff for indulging the ridiculous notion that my questions may lead to new discoveries and ideas we’ve not yet considered.
Cheers.
Francoisesays
Hello Carla, well I think you live in Canada, no? Canadian spelling. I appreciate that you think I am studying primatology! I recall saying that I *wished* I could beyond the anthro courses I took during my B.A. At that time, for whatever reason, primatology did not click with me; urban studies did and more particularly urbanization in the development world.
My gut reaction to your theory is that I do believe the great apes to intelligent. Indeed we now know that there is a level of intelligence among octopuses, birds, and others. But it is not necessarily linear., and you have to start with a definition of intelligence. And like everything that we humans do we do it from our perspective, indeed through our intelligence and as you say theories abound as to what defines intelligence. I would need time to contemplate your thoughts and know more about the references you make in order to discuss it at an equal level. I would be a disadvantage. The folks at CSNW of course are not!
If you live in Toronto? perhaps we can get together.
As for Jamie pondering the magazine, one could say “does he know what he is looking at? does he apply it to his life?” Or does he just find it calming or pleasurable — much like watching TV but not really absorbing it, we just find it great to unwind after work.
Cheers — and thanks to CSNW for the video and for educating and challenging your supporters. You are a bunch of brilliant folks.
Interesting thoughts, both of you! (Sorry for my late reply). As for intelligence, I tend to agree with Francoise that defining, measuring, and comparing intelligence between species can be inherently problematic. When we discuss the “intelligence” of other animals we are usually talking about how much “human intelligence” they have. A bird couldn’t write the sentences I’m writing right now, but there are birds that can recall thousands of caching spots long after they’ve hidden food there, while I have trouble remembering what I did yesterday. I don’t think this makes me less intelligent than a bird; it just means that birds have certain cognitive abilities that I lack, and vice versa. I think any comparative study of intelligence among species requires thinking about intelligence in a broader way than we seem to do currently. 🙂
As for the magazine, I can’t say what Jamie was thinking as she leafed through it. That said, many of our staff members used to care for a group of chimpanzees who used American Sign Language. Some of those chimps enjoyed flipping through magazines and “commenting” on the pictures they saw.
Paulinesays
I think he just likes looking at the pictures and probably the colours. what a lovely boy
These spellings never originated in Canada, but according to Lexicographer Noah Webster in 1828, dual spellings of certain words existed in both countries, thanks to French and Latin origins. Then it was really during the settlement of American colonies where these English spellings were introduced.
I spend a lot of time on UK web-sites for authors so it’s become a habit that was born out of respect for those readers. But I also learned a lot of the spellings in school.
If you click on my name, it will take you to my web-site where you can read more about me. )
Now that you mention it, I think I’ve mixed you up with another poster who announced his major rouhgly six months ago. For some reason I attributed that to you, but glad to have you on board the conversation.
I don’t deny intelligence within the Great Apes; however, I don’t believe that the Orang ‘utan possesses the level of critical thinking skills that seem to be innate in both Chimpanzee species. That was my original argment.
Srry it’s taken me so long to get back to this. Illness and loads of homework has done me in, plus I’m now getting custom design work to do amidst all that.
Hey Jamie, I like to flip through magazines looking at the pictures, too.
So curious and interested and engaged ~ just like people!! So sweet ~ big thanks for posting! Hugs to you all!
Hi, Elizabeth,
Question, as usual. ????
Has there ever been a time when she seemed to indicate through her actions after putting down the magazine (srry for the split infinitive here), that she actually comprehended any part, or seemed to be influenced through any part of what she was seeing?
I know we have limited ways of knowing just what goes through their minds at any given time with language and other published cognitive data studies papers, but I wonder if any study has proven to show that, for instance, chimps like Jamie that might leaf through fashion magazines can comprehend enough of what they’re seeing, and possess enough critical thinking skills that would enable them to process the data being input, then allow it to output in the form of mimicry by copying an outfit (or piece of one) that she saw as a result?
I am writing another post in another window in reply to one of Diana’s earliear postings about Negra, in which I announce to you all that I’m in the process of trying to rearrange my coursework (and possibly schools, if needed) so I can complete a minor in primatology. This is something I’ve wanted to do for most of my life, so it’s due in large part to CSNW, this blog, and the openness of the staff; how you are more than willing to answer our questions because you truly care that we learn, because as I so, too, believe, education is power.
So besides both doctorates, I’ve now been studying every primate husbandry manual I can get my hands on, to, for the moment, supplement the animal behaviour, animal health science, and anthropology classes I’m squeezing into my schedule.
All that to say, I have a theory. It’s one that currently goes against the bulk of the primate information that came out of the studies from the Leaky camps in the ’60s with Biruté on both the Sumatran and Bornean orangutans, and it is this. After watching hundreds of hours of video, reading thousands of pages of published studies on behaviour and the neuroscience of their brain, I just do not believe that orangutans are either intelligent, or possess the ability to BE as intelligent as their rabid fans and followers would want us to believe. An orangutan’s “intelligence” comes by way of mimicry. Every single piece of information an infant orang takes in from birth is by sole way of its mum. She shows it every single piece of information it will ever need to survive for the bulk of its life. I’ll shorten this (I know others like Francoise are pursuing primatology degrees so am hoping they jump in and we can have an interesting discussion on these implications) and state that yes, it’s true humans and other classes of breathing being also learns through mimicry, but the wheat and chaff begin their separation at the issue of logic, and their critical thinking skills.
Humans home and hone that skill through the study of mathematics (among others), because the underlying culture of mathematics is logic. It’s why mathematicians enter law school in droves each year. We’re given an argument, (X), and then shown an infinite supply of tools to prove X, or what’s in the parentheses (argument).
4(x) = 8; what is x?
4x = 8
— —
4 4
? x = 2
What also seems to back up my supposition is that orangutans contain only 96.4% of human DNA.
While Bonobos contain 98.01%, and the Common Chimpanzee has 98%. I know these numbers vary depending on which genome study you read, but one of the latest I read said the Pygmy had a small, nearly undetectable strand more in common with humans than the Common.
Now, I’m just a lowly Astrophysicist/mathematician, posting to a forum run by real, practicing primatologists, so I am under no illusion that I have any smarts or that I’m even close to being right on any ideas I’ve posited so far. So I mean absolutely no affrontery or offense with my ideas, so please, no one think I’m in the process of trying to make anyone uncomfortable with this subject.
They’re just definitely ideas found interesting *to me*, and when I saw Jamie with the magazine, all these other tangential ideas began to flow, along with their resultant questions.
I watch the interaction and numbers with each type of post y’all make, and these get low interactive *scores* for some reason. I would think others, like myself, would find them highly fascinating due to the implications right here, where chimpanzee behaviour has actually been seen to change as a direct result of coming in contact with a human primate cultural practice or other iconic elements.
I dunno. I’m a proud nerd–maybe others have neither the desire or interest to completely overthink and consequentially beat every dead horse they see. ????????????
Anyway, please accept my apologies for the length of this, but if you’ve read this far, you should be commended, and I thank all sanctuary staff for indulging the ridiculous notion that my questions may lead to new discoveries and ideas we’ve not yet considered.
Cheers.
Hello Carla, well I think you live in Canada, no? Canadian spelling. I appreciate that you think I am studying primatology! I recall saying that I *wished* I could beyond the anthro courses I took during my B.A. At that time, for whatever reason, primatology did not click with me; urban studies did and more particularly urbanization in the development world.
My gut reaction to your theory is that I do believe the great apes to intelligent. Indeed we now know that there is a level of intelligence among octopuses, birds, and others. But it is not necessarily linear., and you have to start with a definition of intelligence. And like everything that we humans do we do it from our perspective, indeed through our intelligence and as you say theories abound as to what defines intelligence. I would need time to contemplate your thoughts and know more about the references you make in order to discuss it at an equal level. I would be a disadvantage. The folks at CSNW of course are not!
If you live in Toronto? perhaps we can get together.
As for Jamie pondering the magazine, one could say “does he know what he is looking at? does he apply it to his life?” Or does he just find it calming or pleasurable — much like watching TV but not really absorbing it, we just find it great to unwind after work.
Cheers — and thanks to CSNW for the video and for educating and challenging your supporters. You are a bunch of brilliant folks.
Interesting thoughts, both of you! (Sorry for my late reply). As for intelligence, I tend to agree with Francoise that defining, measuring, and comparing intelligence between species can be inherently problematic. When we discuss the “intelligence” of other animals we are usually talking about how much “human intelligence” they have. A bird couldn’t write the sentences I’m writing right now, but there are birds that can recall thousands of caching spots long after they’ve hidden food there, while I have trouble remembering what I did yesterday. I don’t think this makes me less intelligent than a bird; it just means that birds have certain cognitive abilities that I lack, and vice versa. I think any comparative study of intelligence among species requires thinking about intelligence in a broader way than we seem to do currently. 🙂
As for the magazine, I can’t say what Jamie was thinking as she leafed through it. That said, many of our staff members used to care for a group of chimpanzees who used American Sign Language. Some of those chimps enjoyed flipping through magazines and “commenting” on the pictures they saw.
I think he just likes looking at the pictures and probably the colours. what a lovely boy
Jaime’s female, even though she’s the alpha chimpanzee. 🙂 They believe she’ll be 40 on Halloween of this year.
Hello, Francoise,
Canadian, eh? Nope.
These spellings never originated in Canada, but according to Lexicographer Noah Webster in 1828, dual spellings of certain words existed in both countries, thanks to French and Latin origins. Then it was really during the settlement of American colonies where these English spellings were introduced.
I spend a lot of time on UK web-sites for authors so it’s become a habit that was born out of respect for those readers. But I also learned a lot of the spellings in school.
If you click on my name, it will take you to my web-site where you can read more about me. )
Now that you mention it, I think I’ve mixed you up with another poster who announced his major rouhgly six months ago. For some reason I attributed that to you, but glad to have you on board the conversation.
I don’t deny intelligence within the Great Apes; however, I don’t believe that the Orang ‘utan possesses the level of critical thinking skills that seem to be innate in both Chimpanzee species. That was my original argment.
Srry it’s taken me so long to get back to this. Illness and loads of homework has done me in, plus I’m now getting custom design work to do amidst all that.
Cheers.